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Talk:Zhuge Liang
Some things I've heard about the historical Zhuge Liang Mainly that in reality he wasn't as big of a name as he was in various fictions and that he made it a point to ban scholars in Shu as to prevent his efforts at fluffing himself up from getting foiled. Not sure how true this is, but this is in line of how the fictional stuff tends to cover up the less desirable actions of the figures in it, Shu in particular. Figured I'd post this here and see how true it really is.ReiKusanagi (talk) 05:13, April 20, 2013 (UTC) He is not a politician. Sigh. He is regarded as the best strategist in that era (3 kingdom dynasty) A master of diplomacy, internal affair, military resource allocation, logistics, human resources, etc... Lampuiho (talk) 18:21, May 22, 2014 (UTC) :He's talking about the historical Zhuge Liang though, who was indeed more of a politician than the strategist he's made out to be in both novel and games. - Hero of Chaos (talk) 19:06, May 22, 2014 (UTC) :Yea I'm talking about the historical Zhuge Liang. And at that time, there was barely any politician because they have absolute power they don't need to do much politics. Diplomacy is not dealing with politics. The historical Zhuge Liang was a great strategist because it was his idea, Liu Bei got a foot hold in Zhu. It was him that allowed them to win numerous battles and build up military strength. If you don't know how it is related to his strategies, you've got to read. Even if he failed those northen expeditions, it didn't mean he was straight out bad. He never suffered heavy losses and stayed strong and remained a threat. Look at what Jiang Wei did later and you can see why Zhuge Liang is so regarded highly historically. Just read Records of the three kingdoms. It was mixed with lots of objective comments. Even though the author Chen Zhou never liked Zhuge family, he still spoke of him highly. Then you know it's the truth.Lampuiho (talk) 09:36, June 7, 2014 (UTC) ::Maybe give some concrete examples of why you regard Zhuge Liang as the best strategist of that era so that I can follow you better. Because I can't really see what makes him stand out so much in terms of strategy compared to someone like Jia Xu or Lu Meng, both of whom had brilliant strategic victories. - Hero of Chaos (talk) 22:11, June 7, 2014 (UTC) :::I find that hard to believe, considering the size of territories in china and how governments typically functioned even with kings/etc. Sure the king/etc had power but other people went about making his word reality and paperwork. And in times of war/etc, such people helped handle things domesically. Futher more according to what's said in Fa Zheng's page, his role was minimized in the novel by Chen Zhou in both importance and impact (in history, Liu Bei mourned his death while in the novel, no one really did). Is there any citation on him not liking the Zhuge family as it seems it's the other way around favoring Zhuge Liang.ReiKusanagi (talk) 09:35, June 8, 2014 (UTC) :::To add to all of your points: http://the-archlich.tumblr.com/post/92945620562 :::This guy sums it all up. :::TL; DR: A lot of shit you've heard about Zhuge Liang is a lie (even the wooden oxen, lanterns and the mantou), and from this forum: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5079, Chen Shou may have either glorified him or outright ignored him, making his SGZ bio ambiguous at best. :::If ONLY he was a funny genius like that, but in the end he was pretty much a near-self entitled opinion of himself AND ignored Wei Yan (who was Shu's most capable general at the time). SneaselSawashiro (talk) 20:33, February 29, 2016 (UTC) As the editor who wrote the history and Romance of the Three Kingdoms sections for this Zhuge Liang's page, I can vouch for Zhuge Liang as a good strategist and official of Shu. I mainly looked at English sources while writing those sections, but I did make sure to cross reference to ensure more then one bias was represented. Liang was trained by a leading scholar, did negotiate an alliance with Wu to stop Wei, helped Liu Bei capture Jing, worked to establish the She government, conquered the rebellious Nanman, and led his northern campaigns. He gets more praise in RoTK, but then that is a political piece. He, Liu Bei, and Shu in general receive a lot of hate in response to the extra praise they received in later days. They were not the best, but they were not the worst either. DW draws more from legend and tales then history (I mean, its a series where we can singlehandedly slay a whole army). A good example, at least for Americans, as to why Zhuge Liang is hated on would be Paul Revere, a man heralded as a Revolutionary War Hero for his warning about oncoming British soldiers. In reality, he had help making his famous ride and managed to get himself caught before finishing the run. This truth, however, should not ignore the fact that he did actually serve as messenger for the Revolutionary forces like Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's poem immortalized. SonsofZeruiah (talk) 22:10, February 29, 2016 (UTC) Update: Well, from one certain reddit post that talked about the biased side of the-archlich, I can say that he's successfully destroyed my vision of Shu. Wei despite being "VERY PERFECT" in his eyes, is no doubt to someone me a VERY intimidating kingdom: you have Cao Cao, a very big ruler who was subjective to being the bad guy (not as much as Sima Yi and/or Dong Zhuo however) with some punch-packing generals like Xu Chu and Yue Jin. Due to values during the time the original novel was written, of course Shu would be a proper underdog for the "virtuous" side of things. Sadly, then comes the scrutiny which made me hate Shu almost just as much as archlich; bear in mind that I was a bit of a Guan Yu guy, since to this day he's still fun to play as and he's no longer as bland anymore (Musou Attack one-shotting in WO3/MO2 FTW). But alas, I remember he pretty much deserved his fate in the novel, but I never expect his ability to be considered THAT bad in history. Then we have people like Ma Chao and Zhang Fei...and Liu Bei who even bothered to become a bandit AND was a pretty treacherous dude. And of course, there were already people like Gan Ning (like his kitchen boy incident), while Yuan Shao ended up becoming nothing but a stupid joke character (he even only fights you on a TANK in Knights of Valour 3) while his historical self as archlich states, was said to have end up consumed by power. Then we have Sun Quan ending up from a great guy to an unreasonable fool. Welp, the fact that Zhuge Liang seems to "dumb down everyone and have his not-so-copy-and-pasted ambush units" pop up to demoralize even someone like Sima Yi is just nuts. Then we have the two versions of Lu Su. DW8 Lu Su was actually on the mark on the historical version this time around. I don't even know what to believe anymore. So yeah, I'm just a dumbass tool who's pissed off and angry as hell at this shit I've just learned about. --SneaselSawashiro (talk) 03:41, March 4, 2016 (UTC) :I feel that you're doing the same mistake that many people do who get into this era via the games and the novel; sliding from one extreme into the other. You've taken the info you got in a game and a novel as fact and once you turned to actual historical research and saw that the potrayals of some characters you've been used to are inaccurate, you believe the exact opposite to be true. You talk about Zhuge Liang as if history says he was awfully bad and crap and that the novel gives him so much praise apparently from out of nowhere. But that's not true. In fact, Zhuge Liang's diplomatical skill ensured the survival of both Wu and Shu against Cao Cao and Wei. His administrative skill allowed Shu to prosper during his time as prime minister. His northern campaigns, while not having made any gains in Wei's territory, were not a waste of resources, kept casualties low and, most importantly, prevented Wei from striking Shu themselves. With the limits Shu had faced, he managed to keep a much larger enemy at bay and this deserves some credit. And quite frankly, if Jiang Wei had kept a similar approach as Zhuge Liang, Shu might have even survived longer. They were in no position to unite the land, but Zhuge Liang probably did the best he could do in the given situation. :He wasn't the godlike character he is presented as in the novel. He could be an "ass" to others and his judgement on talent wasn't spot on. He was not the brilliant strategist whose plans always worked. He had edges, flaws, just as every single person has. But that's probably not what one (or Luo Guangzhong in this case) needs for an entertaining novel. :You need to differentiate more and especially try to think about it more yourself instead of taking everything someone says about a historical character in a blog, on a reddit post, in a game or in a novel as fact. The best approach would be to do research on the character yourself by reading the actual sources that exist and are usually referenced in essays or articles. Since everything someone who had read the sources says is one's own interpretation and will always include at least some degree of a personal opinion. Whether it's completely biased or not doesn't really matter. Just try to build your own opinion more with the actual sources. - Hero of Chaos (talk) 10:11, March 4, 2016 (UTC) Zhuge Liang is a ****ing lie http://the-archlich.tumblr.com/post/92945620562 I'm sorry, I CANNOT stress this enough. Yes, I'm being a dumbass tool for following a biased post out of MANY OTHER BIASED HISTORICAL BIOS.....but alas. Zhuge Kongming/Shokatsu Koumei, both your normal name and style name are a just a piece of shit, and your comparisons are different from mine as in you think of yourself to be akin to one's most positive traits while in reality, your own history is a ****ing wad of bullshit. Your silent Koei portrayal would be massively ashamed of himself in his grave. SneaselSawashiro (talk) 20:35, February 29, 2016 (UTC) :What is wrong with you? - Hero of Chaos (talk) 07:45, March 2, 2016 (UTC) :My thoughts of Shu have been crushed. That's what. It was already no secret that Guan Yu was not the man people thought him to be (BOTH real life AND in the novel), but with Zhuge Liang...I guess that's why he laughs all the time via his Knights of Valour portrayal as of KoV2; his dead-self must be so damn happy people are giving him this bs credit he didn't even take. SneaselSawashiro (talk) 03:17, March 4, 2016 (UTC)